The Paper Snail

Jim O’Rourke Interviews

Interview by Aaron Garbutt, ca 1998

After five or so years paired with David Grubbs as the highbrow-indie Gastr del Sol, culminating in 1998’s amazing ‘Camoufleur’, Jim O’Rourke’s latest solo effort pulls together influences as disparate as the pop of Beach Boys co-collaborator Van Dyke Parks, the experimental Americana of folkie John Fahey, and the minimalism of Tony Conrad and Arnold Dreyblatt - as well as Jim’s own pre-Gastr recordings - to create something new, yet warmly familiar. ‘Eureka’ is challenging, pleasant - and above all, satisfying. It is a work of intelligence and breadth. I’ll go so far as to say that Jim O’Rourke is the Orson Welles of independent music. When not creating his own music, Jim’s producer’s hand is guiding everyone else’s; from Sam Prekop to Stereolab to U.S. Maple; He has also toured recently with Merce Cunningham. He lives and works in Chicago and answered questions via email.

‘Eureka’ is Fantastic, what are your thoughts now that it has been unleashed on the world?

…as far as possible from ‘Eureka’…

What about the cover art?

Well, I saw a postcard of the picture in Japan in ‘95 and knew immediately that this was one day going to be the cover of my record. the artist’s name is Mimiyo Tomozawa, and she’s brilliant. I love her stuff, and when I’m in Tokyo we go to karaoke together and scare everyone.

You’ve been producing a lot lately, are there any projects that are more inspiring or interesting than others; any good stories?

Well, Jesus, there are always too many stories to even begin. I really enjoyed the records I worked on lately: Superchunk, Aluminum Group, Stereolab, High Llamas, Sam Prekop, Licht/Mazzacane, in general they are all different and require a lot of attention and quick thinking (hopefully!!) so I’m always feeling fresh about working that way.

Who are some important musicians of the past? Contemporaries?

Past: Charles Ives, Derek Bailey, Luc Ferrari, John Fahey, Van Dyke Parks, Stravinsky, etc…

Now: Fennesz, Pita, Kevin Drumm, Nobukazu Takemura, Markus Popp, etc…

Favorite books, films, artists?

Books: The Crying Of Lot 49 [Thomas Pynchon], Against Nature [Joris-Karl Huysmans], Cities Of The Red Night [William S. Burroughs]

Films: Bad Timing [Nicolas Roeg], Performance [David Cammel, Nicolas Roeg], Lisztomania [Ken Russell], The Discrete Charm Of The Bourgeoisie [Luis Bunuel]

Artists: Chris Burden, Paul McCarthy

Tell us about your neighborhood, any favorite restaurants, a place to get a deal on shoes?

Hmm, not much commerce in my neighborhood, no places to eat really. Lots of mexican, but not that good, plus I’m a vegetarian, so I’d get tired of the one or 2 things I can have. There is a movie theater two blocks from my house that has films for $2, but I can never go anymore -usually working all day, so…

Who was your first crush?

Hmm, Linda Jansen, Adrienne Galowski, Cheryl Atchue, Tina Schapp. High School: Miss Skowron, English teacher (of course!), and then my life long crushes started around 13: Cyndi Lauper and Ikue Mori.

Your favorite President?

‘President’s Choice’ cookies.

Jim O’Rourke: Chicago, New-York, Tokyo et Paris quelquefois, April 14, 2002

Originally posted to PurJus.net

Note: Though the interview was published in English, the introductory and closing texts were published in French and have been machine translated here.

14 Avril 2002. Auditorium du Louvres à Paris

Jim O’Rourke had been invited, as part of the “Makeup: The Painted Face in Cinema” film series, to compose the music for Clown’s Tears, a 1924 silent film by Victor Sjörström, starring Lon Chaney.

I decided to take advantage of my quick trip to Paris that weekend, try my luck, and meet this extraordinary musician. I was dreading having to contend with the entire Parisian music journalism clique (Inrocks, Magic, Libération, who knows?). The press office was unreachable that Sunday, so things weren’t looking good. But as they say, “nothing ventured, nothing gained,” so I boldly showed up at the reception desk of the Louvre Auditorium, asking to speak to Mr. O’Rourke…

2 minutes later

There we go, I’m being introduced. My first impression: he’s not very tall, Jim’s a bit chubby. But above all, Jim O’Rourke is very friendly, true to his reputation. Despite his many hours of travel before arriving in Paris that same afternoon, Jim kindly agreed to take a break from preparing for his evening performance before being called in for soundcheck.

Here is the transcript of the interview we had that day. It’s a shame I can’t share the many bursts of laughter with you, dear readers! (We don’t have enough space on the PurJus.net server to add sound, sorry.)

Good evening Jim…

Hi.

We are at the Auditorium du Louvre. You are going to present the music you created for a silent film from the 20’s. Do you do this kind of thing Often?

I have not done it in many years. Usually I do not do it. Usually I do not enjoy doing music to film. Now, I think I remember Why, now I’ve been working on this one! (laughs)

…I read somewhere goal on the Internet that you very much liked movies, and maybe your interest in movies was your interest Stronger than in music?…

Yeah… my interest in film has nothing to do with the music in it! (laughs) Usually it’s the least interesting thing for me.

Well, I must admit I’m not very familiar with all what you did, you do a lot of things. One particular thing is very striking in your interviews: you seem to always mention tons of artists names. Do you think people should like you “investigate” in music, always try to be alert? Do you feel comfortable with people just listening to the radio without bothering who’s behind?

Oh, I think everybody should investigate. It should be an active pursuit. I don’t understand how people just wait for things to be given to them. I need to find out things constantly. if i like something and I see a name related to it that I don’t know, a name on the liner note, an article with a name I know, I want to find out what the other name is. I always in need to know. I’d hope everybody would do that.

To a certain extent we – students, fellow worker for purjus.net – try to do that. But it’s a hell of a time-consuming job!

(laughs) Yeah, it takes up most of your time.

…and most of your money buying records.

Yeah. I mean, if you can’t buy records, you just find people who have them to hear them.

I learned that you’ve got a degree in composition…

(laughs)

…Do you think one must study music to understand it? Or is it just a bonus?

Yeah, it just lets you know about other aspects of it. I don’t think you need to study at all, like formerly study, like university. If anything, I think it gets in the way. because it put too much value on things that aren’t necessarily the most important things in music. It puts more value on technique and analysis than on music and what it does. So, I think school gets in the way, personnally. I think the best school in listening, is your turntable.

What do you think then about that “intellectual” jazz: in concerts it’s usually a championship for who will recognize the standard theme the first.

A lot of times that’s what that is, yeah. A lot of times “using material” gets confused with “using material to make something else”. And many people just stop at the point of using things, and don’t think of what te references mean outside of playing them. “what does it mean socially? what kind of things does it connotate?”.

Do you fear that happening in so-called “experimental” music? Some artists are just banging things on walls, or things like that… Does this kind of music appeal to you?

There’s just as much bad music in experimental music as anything else. Because people are afraid to say that some experimental music is bad. Some of it’s great, some of it’s good, some of it sucks! Just like any other kind of music. But it seems to be… It seems you can’t have an opinion about these kinds of music. You know the terms, the definition of them are so vague for many people that to start making jugements… not jugements, but having an opinion about them seems difficult. Nobody’s going to make a big stink if you say “that last Old Dirty Bastard record really sucked!” because there is sort of an understood set of criteria for what makes that good or bad. But it’s a lot more vague in experimental music. Yeah, there’s definitely bad stuff! being experimental doesn’t mean it’s good!

…and when there’s a famous name on the liner notes, it doesn’t mean it’s good.

Usually not! A lot of times, just like anything else…there’s a lot of famous names that are awesome, some are terrible. It really depends on your taste. There are plenty of famous names you couldn’t pay me to go and see. And there’s plenty of small names you couldn’t pay me to go and see. And there’s plenty of big and small names that I will always go see or listen to. It depends on one’s taste, like anything else.

A few days ago, a friend of mine listened to a Fenn O’Berg record, and he just couldn’t get into it. Do you mind?

I don’t listen to it! (laughs) I don’t know what that record is, it’s a strange one. No, I mean it’s fine, if it’s not for them, it’s not for them. I don’t expect them to listen to… an Ace of Base record or something. I listen to Boney M. records but i don’t know many people who do! (laughs.) It doesn’t bother me if someone doesn’t like it. There’s plenty of people who don’t like it! So, if I had a problem, I’d be in deep trouble.

I also read that you have a strong interest in French “musique concrète”, but do you like some earlier French composers: like Ravel or Debussy…

Sure. Growing up I listened to all that stuff. And then I got into the Luc Ferrari and Pierre Henry and all that. Yeah, I mean, of course a lot of the 20th century composers. I always liked Milhaud very much. I like that stuff just as well.

we only spoke of “occidental” music. What about Asian music, South American music…

Japanese music. I’m crazy about it. I have a huge collection of Japanese music. There’s a whole history of music in Japan. Most people know about stuff like the noise bands, the Boredoms, things like that, which are all great. But the country has an entire history. In the 70’s there were amazing, amazing, records in Japan. There were rock bands, there were folk-rock band, there were folk bands, singer-songwriters. There’s tons of that stuff. I’m crazy about it. I go there 4 or 5 times a year just buying everything I can get my hands on. I just came back with another box full. 2 boxes full!

Do you manage to listen to all of it?

Oh yeah, I listen to everything.

So you basically live for music. You don’t do anything else?

No, I don’t do anything else. I watch movies but otherwise… I consider it all work but no, I don’t do anything else. What else is there to do? (laughs)

You work with numerous artists, many of which you admire. Do you still have people in mind you’d love to work with?

There always is. You know, I’ve been very lucky to get to work with a lot of great people. An people I never thought I would be able to get to work with.(pause) I don’t know. I think I need a break from working WITH people! (laughs) It’s been like ten years straight of it. There’s a lot of people I would love to do things with but it wouldn’t be necessarily collaborate. Because a lot of people I like, they do great on their own. I don’t want to mess it up. For instance I love Albert Marcoeur, if I could do like reissue the records or help them get more available. But collaborate?… I’d rather him just make a new record of his own than collaborate. (laughs) A lot of people I like I just want them to keep doing their stuff.

Lately you put out 2 very different records. Insignificance on Domino for Europe, and I’m happy and I’m singing… on the German label Mego. In what direction will you go next?

I’m sure I won’t make another record for another 2 years. So I have no idea. I doubt I’ll make a record for a long time.

You’ll be on the road…

No, it’s just that it takes me years to make a record. Most of the stuff on the Mego record is already like 3 years old. I just take a long time to do records on my own.

.

At 8:30 p.m., the auditorium was packed. I seriously doubted that Lon Chaney and his silent film would interest so many people, which also proves that Jim O’Rourke can draw over 500 people on his name alone. To be perfectly honest, I wasn’t exactly blown away by O’Rourke’s electronic performance, which lacked a wide range of atmospheres to accompany the 80-minute film, perhaps due to a lack of preparation. But that wasn’t the main point of the day for me.

A big thank you to Jim for his availability and kindness, to the Louvre auditorium team, and especially to Valérie Brisset from the press office.

Suicide Girls with Keith Daniels, May 29, 2003

Multi-instrumentalist studio wizard Jim O’Rourke is the newest member of NYC’s avant-garde legends, Sonic Youth, but that’s merely added a new chapter to his War and Peace-size resume. An accomplished artist in his own right, having written the soundtracks to the films Love Lisa and the upcoming An Injury To One, as well as a multitude of albums in his own name. O’Rourke mixed Wilco’s classic Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, in addition to working with Jeff Tweedy’s side-project, Loose Fur. I’ve merely listed the most recognizable names here, but for a good (long) evening’s read – check out his discography. Somewhere in the midst of all this work, and shows with Sonic Youth, Jim found time to answer a few questions via email:

You began working with Sonic Youth on Goodbye 20th Century and NYC Ghosts & Flowers. How did that come about?

Well, it was [actually] a bit earlier than that. I’d known Lee [Ranaldo] since the early 90’s, and I would run into him and Thurston a fair amount as they became more involved in improvised music circles in the early ‘90’s, which I was involved with a lot at the time. They both were big supporters and would come out and see me play, which I appreciated. The move to playing with the group happened when Thurston and I were both playing with the Merce Cunningham Company in ‘96 or ‘97, sorry can’t remember, and we dropped by the studio on the way to work. Lee suggested we all play, and that became SYR3. Around the same time I began doing some mixing/engineering for some of Kim and Thurston’s side projects, I was coming to New York more often, and generally, they just kept involving me in more and more projects until I was just sort of there all the time…

What was your reaction when they asked you to become a full-time member for Murray Street?

Well, in all honesty I try not to think about it. It wasn’t like they formally asked me or anything. That actually would have freaked me out a bit. It’s not really the way I work. I just see the work at hand, and get to it.

You’re a good deal younger than the rest of the band. Do they ever tease you about that?

Not too much.. I’m a bit older than people think. For a lot of people I know they’ve only become aware of me since ‘97 or so, but I’ve been making records since the 80’s. In fact Thurston has told me that early on, when he was buying my first records, he thought I was some tweed coat wearing professor or something. Except for a few occasions, I’ve always worked with people older than me. The only real jokes spring from my early dismissal of Sonic Youth because they weren’t noisy enough for me, heh. When I first heard Confusion is Sex, I thought, “That’s not noisy!”, but I was a hard core improv/noise guy then. I wanted Whitehouse and Amm 24 hrs a day.

Even with all your accomplishments on your own, do you ever sit back and say to yourself “Jesus, I’m in Sonic Youth!”?

No, not really, because I work with people because I like working with those people. I don’t think much of the rest of the baggage. If anything, I try to keep out of that, because it is their history, and I want to respect that, so I make a real effort to not connect myself with Sonic Youth pre-‘97 at all.

What do you feel you bring to a band that you work with?

Well, in the case of Sonic Youth, it would simply be “me”. They are truly a band that works/sounds the way they do because of the different personalities. Many groups have a strong visionary leader, and others support and enhance, but it does have a nexus. Sonic Youth is definitely a collective.

What was your formal background in music theory?

Urgh. I did go to college, but I want to stress I don’t believe that it is the way to go, at all. I was the first person in my family to go to college, so I had to finish to make my parents happy, but I learned much more outside the classroom than in.

Do you feel that helped or influenced the way you make music now?

Well, definitely studying music helps, regardless of what people say. If you are “influenced” by it, well I think that’s still your own fault, not the school’s. You have to have a strong identity to make sure you learn from it, but let that be a view of the possibilities, not “the way”. I’m glad I studied, I still [study], but it’s just so I can get better, even if that is learning that I’ve been wrong, it’s all good.

The history of serious music in the 20th century has been marked by debate over what constitutes beauty, and the role of ugliness in art. What does beautiful music mean to you? Why is ugliness sometimes useful in music?

Well, to me Merzbow is totally beautiful.

Sonic Youth is a band that has sometimes been called “pretentious”. What do you think critics mean when they say that?

Well, usually they have no idea what the word means. It’s generally used wrong, so it doesn’t really matter what they “think”.

You worked with Wilco on their album Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. What was that whole experience like? Did it change, or merely confirm, your opinion of the music industry?

It was an odd occurence, since the first Loose Fur record was already finished when Jeff asked me to mix YHF. I think it was watching me mix that made him think of asking me. So I went into it in a sort of detached way, which is what he wanted, to hear the results without being so emotionally connected to all the recording and such, see it unbiased. As to what happened to the record in re: Warners, well that was no surprise really. It’s typical of how the industry works; people are generally only at a label for a year or so, they’re all basically spending all their time looking for the next move up, watching their ass. It’s definitely not conducive to good music being released, very few people I’ve met in the “industry” are what I would call music fans. Then again a lot of people I’ve met in the “indie"world aren’t what I would call music fans either. Heh. I’m hard to please.

There’s a sense that the Loose Fur project was a way to work on new ideas outside of the high expectations for Wilco’s next album. Do you feel that is an accurate assessment?

Well, we didn’t really reference the Wilco album at all, and Glenn was not yet in Wilco, so for Jeff I’m sure it was a way to see things a different way. For Glenn and myself, it was exciting to work with someone else, and probably fun for Glenn to not have to have hear me tell him what parts to play, heh heh. So, for Glenn and myself, Wilco didn’t really come into it at all.

Have you gone on a major tour yet with Sonic Youth? Are you nervous about playing for huge crowds?

[I’ve been on tour with Sonic Youth] since ‘99 or so. As long as I’m not the center of attention, I have no problems. Doing my own shows however is another question entirely. I haven’t done a “band” show in a few years, and I doubt I’ll do it again.

Listening to almost any Sonic Youth record, one gets the feeling that there is both a lot of thought put into it before-hand, and that spontaneity played a large role. Has it been interesting to you to see how a band that has so much history goes about making music?

Well, the sense of history is just something I try to respect, and know where my place is, meaning I stay out of it! Heh heh. Unlike other group situations I’d been in before, where there is a strong center force (like in Red Krayola), Sonic Youth [is] an interesting hybrid for me, since it works like a group improv meeting. It just wouldn’t be what it was if it wasn’t those people together. Someone may come in with the basic song, but what it is after the four of them go at it doesn’t really resemble the original idea, which is terrific. So it was interesting to have this group dynamic on a different time scale, as opposed to “For one hour we will make music together.” It was like continuous revision of that hour, know what i mean? It’s hip.

What have you been working on today?

At the moment, I’m mostly doing some remastering stuff for friends: a new Rob Mazurek record, a bunch of stuff for Loren Mazzacane Connors. I spend a few hours a day working on my record, which is just writing at the moment, since it’s gonna have about 100 people playing on it, so have to score it all out, gonna take forever. And watch a few movies, a daily need. And listening to Cockney Rebel’s Psychomodo album again and again.

Would you consider yourself a workaholic?

Nah, workaholics work to avoid something. I love to work.

A lot of musicians say that there was one particular record that they heard when they were young that was like an epiphany for them, and made them want to play music. What was it that did it for you?

It’d be a few, hard to pin it down. Early early on, it would definitely be Mothers of Invention Uncle Meat, John Coltrane’s Live at the Village Vanguard Again (because of Pharoah Sanders solo on “Naima” – I distinctly remembering my friends think I was nutso for liking this track), and [Paul] McCartney’s first solo album. Definitely Goddard’s Weekend, Roeg/Camel’s Performance, and Downey Sr.’s Greasers Palace (I was very very lucky that there was a channel in Chicago that played all these films). In high school I got heavily into minimalism, although the free jazz and avant garde stuff were still bubbling under, then I got obsessed with that stuff in college. If I had to pick an album that really encapsulated it all for me though, it’d be Van Dyke Park’s Song Cycle. I’ve still never heard anything as good.

Are you involved in any of Sonic Youth’s humanitarian interests, for example Free Tibet?

Well, I have been since I’ve been involved, it’s generally a group effort.

What record in your collection would surprise someone who was a fan of your music the most?

Hmmmm…Boney M, well, I guess that wouldn’t be too much of a surprise. I really like the first two songs on Jordan Knight’s solo album, they’re completely brilliant. the first song might as well be from Spark’s Indiscreet. The rest of the album kinda blows.

What’s next on your agenda?

Work on my churlish figure.